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00:00:00:01 - 00:00:19:18
Sam Orrin
I've always enjoyed my conversations with Kirsten, which is why I reach out to and ask their shit for doing this. I hope she doesn't mind me. I hope you don't mind me saying this cousin about the cousins super direct. I think she's a force of nature and really positive as well in the way that she puts ideas and solutions across.
00:00:19:18 - 00:00:40:11
Sam Orrin
I obviously love her style and and actually when you listen to the podcast, I realize having also for the first time and you realize when you listen to it that actually it's it's cousins entire background and everything that she's interested in that makes her who she is at work. Also super interesting just to hear about what makes a person tick outside of work as you know.
00:00:40:11 - 00:01:06:17
Sam Orrin
And that's interesting, right? Enjoy. There's so much come out there about industry, technology, innovation, all that kind of stuff, Right. And stuff that me and you were talking about. But I want to talk the conversations. I really enjoy having the ones before meeting or also meeting or like it just there's no meeting agenda whatsoever and you end up, you end up actually talking to people.
00:01:06:19 - 00:01:27:12
Sam Orrin
And I feel like we're lacking that these days. Yeah. With, with Zoom and you know, the way generally meetings kind of connections happen. So I just want to ask questions about you And so yeah, to kick things off, could you please explain what you do at work as if you're talking to a five year old?
00:01:27:14 - 00:01:46:12
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
So do you have a five year old? So I often do. You have to do you have to explain this to him when he's wondering what on earth Mommy is doing, like sitting down all day. And I simply put it to him that I help people get jobs. That's the simplest way of explaining everything I do from process technology, which he doesn't understand.
00:01:46:14 - 00:02:10:03
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Just to simplify it, say I help people find jobs, I help them match up into organizations and they get a job. Simple as that. And he understands that because anything. So Mommy's got a job and that's what Mommy does that. So that yeah, that's probably the easiest way, I think, because otherwise all that jumps to your point or the jump behind it is is competing.
00:02:10:04 - 00:02:44:11
Sam Orrin
A lot of the people that I've spoken to, contingent workforce experts or professionals or whether we are more safe where you are and a lot of them actually have I've said what I love about work is the fact that it's all about people. And at the end of it, wherever you work, whether you work for that platform or an MSP or staffing company or whatever it might be, it it's people getting jobs and people making money and people be able to afford like to live, which is they're kind of that's, that's how they get satisfaction out of it.
00:02:44:16 - 00:03:09:24
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Yeah. Is that though is making sure that you know we look at yeah ultimately we're in the people business we're not buying pencils you know you know so the way we work, etc. has think has a direct impact on people being arms coming to even to that point of I feel like a prices and stuff if they're not run correctly or if checks aren't done correctly, from a wider people perspective, it can have a it can impress people getting a mortgage and paying their bills.
00:03:10:01 - 00:03:22:20
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
So there is a real and like humanized element to to it rather than just going to the boring compliance stuff, it directly impacts people and what they do, how they feel and outside and also their own families as well.
00:03:22:22 - 00:03:43:15
Sam Orrin
Yeah, totally. How does it how does work affect you as a human out there outside of work? Does it does, does it? I don't. I guess what I'm trying to ask is, does work have a positive influence on you? Yeah. As a as a person, you take that into your personal life's work. What do you do? You have a divide, then?
00:03:43:17 - 00:04:07:23
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
I think if you genuinely feel satisfies and is it and and if you're making it my making a difference or even just, you know, like the simple element of feeling like you're doing a good job, that in itself. Well, but about like bleeds into my personal life because then I feel, you know, I feel good. I feel like, you know, I feel I feel confident, I feel positive about things, etc., because it's just a natural feeling of, yeah, everything's going fine.
00:04:08:00 - 00:04:31:18
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
And if I feel a bit under pressure or having to be stressed or if I feel I've got time constraints, that also then bleeds into my personal life because I'm then running around like I had this ticking, trying to manage my diary in my time with children and everything else. So everything is completely interlinked, whether it will be time, location, emotion, stress, everything is even the extent of know.
00:04:31:20 - 00:04:48:12
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
I sometimes feel is is. And I've seen this in other people. You can jump onto a meeting with them and they won't be themselves. And if you know them really well, you can see that something's about opposite in and it could be as simple as they had a really backyard in the office or their kids were being really difficult to get to school in the morning.
00:04:48:18 - 00:05:04:03
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Everything is interlinked now because, you know, in some respects the filter of putting on a persona for work has gone. So people feel more okay to just completely be themselves and which is where the emotional elements come in.
00:05:04:05 - 00:05:28:21
Sam Orrin
Yeah, I think the same, definitely. I mean, I've been only working really now for like 12, 13 years and going my first ever row in London, you had to wear a suit and you'd buckle up, You get on the bus, get there, and you were on best behavior. You know, a really good you know, you're always like, you know, manners, you know, polite questions, sales director or whoever it was.
00:05:28:21 - 00:05:41:12
Sam Orrin
And I just feel like that's in a good way, probably for the best, maybe for the best. I'm not sure that's kind of disappeared now from our elite. My workplace. What's it like over at Hays? You know, what's the what's the vibe?
00:05:41:14 - 00:05:59:18
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
I, I think generally there's two things I think for me, because if you look at it internally, there's an element of like being professional, which is actually quite simply by being polite. It's not actually even about professional, it's just been about polite, having good manners and making sure that you talk to people, engage your people in the right way in the same way that you would do if you bumped into someone in a supermarket.
00:05:59:18 - 00:06:22:17
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
All right, in you outside of work connections and it with externally when you're talking to clients, yes, there's an element of professionalization, but I still think there's an element of building rapport requires which in order to build rapport, you do just need to be yourself. You know, there's still the things you do and don't say clearly because you wouldn't talk to someone the way you do.
00:06:22:17 - 00:06:36:02
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
In the pub, however, there is still an element of quickly being on to be a pool. Show someone who you are, talk to them as if you were told someone that you know and not have this kind of this God well around you the whole time. So it has to. It has definitely changed.
00:06:36:04 - 00:06:57:19
Sam Orrin
Yeah. Especially in this industry. I would have had I would have thought that this industry culturally hasn't hugely changed because, you know, staffing, recruitment, people, there's always that you have to have. And I would think my view on is you have to have empathy. You have to be a relationship builder. Yes. Be curious and ask people questions. You even have to ask people how they are.
00:06:57:21 - 00:07:15:03
Sam Orrin
You call it's not robotic like maybe and I'm massively generalizing it because I have no idea. But I would imagine maybe, you know, finance might be or barracking or, you know, legal maybe where it just feels like that that professionalism has to be seriously elevated.
00:07:15:04 - 00:07:40:10
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Just not often anymore. Because if you think about being, you know, like just generally working relationships now, and if you think about all of the stuff that you read regarding emotional intelligence, empathy, post-op, regardless of the industry that you're in, if you're going to be a good leader or if you're going to have happy employees, you do need to show you those things to then you can't have this kind of cold, competitive, you know, environment whereby people can't be themselves.
00:07:40:10 - 00:08:01:05
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
And then if you then combine that with how much diversity, well, you said let's call it inclusion and how important inclusion is, if people can't come to work and say they're knackered because they had like not because the kids are all, well, you know, oh X-Y-Z or can't talk about the weekends or can't actually be themselves, I have to filter out.
00:08:01:05 - 00:08:07:16
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
I think that's regardless of the industry. I think you're just going to have unhappy people in their roles, kind of just just doing the job.
00:08:07:16 - 00:08:32:10
Sam Orrin
And that's changed for me. I definitely have seen that as that's drastic changes in the last five years. It's not just COVID that change that. For me, I think COVID definitely accelerated it because you saw people's bedrooms and lounges and kitchens and kids and wives or whatever. But before that, I didn't think it was on that, you know, that the cliche was that tech companies do pizza and beers and ping pong and corporates did.
00:08:32:10 - 00:08:40:07
Sam Orrin
And I think COVID like eradicated that kind of nonsense and made everyone on a relatively easy telling.
00:08:40:09 - 00:08:55:21
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
It's put everybody on the same on the same level in a way like you and I, whether you be if you're a professional services organization or your recruitment or even if you're in finance, I thought your main customer is still the person who's buying, like he's buying a mortgage, he's calling up to talk about their mortgage to you.
00:08:55:21 - 00:09:10:20
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
So everyone's got a customer both internally and externally. And if anything, it's just taken down that that role playing, that kind of that. So acting and going in like, can I putting on that performance at work, you know, it's it's taken that away.
00:09:10:21 - 00:09:19:23
Sam Orrin
And did you did you start your career in people and staffing and this this this there yeah How did you get into it.
00:09:20:02 - 00:09:22:11
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
I've never actually been a recruiter that okay.
00:09:22:11 - 00:09:27:04
Sam Orrin
Oh is that did you say did you just say that was like a a sense of pride or is that.
00:09:27:06 - 00:09:43:03
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
It now? It's just because I have a completely different angle to it and say my background is in psychology. And then when I finished uni, I went into resource management. So I started off thinking about and I worked for I worked in resource management for a it professional services outsourcing fan.
00:09:43:05 - 00:09:46:06
Sam Orrin
Say bye bye bye exit by accident it was out. Did you want.
00:09:46:06 - 00:10:19:04
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Choice? No by choice because my I'm having a bit of control wanted to plan my life away. My plan was to do psychology, then go into some form of h.r. Resource type role like resourcing type role, and then do occupational psychology. So to get some like first hand life experience and then going do occupational psychology and, and so when I went into resource management, it was all around kind of like workforce workforce planning, what skills you need to run an it's like service desk etc. what percentage of contained it should you have a perm.
00:10:19:06 - 00:10:54:10
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
So even when I first came out of uni, I was in a role whereby and I was thinking about an actual percentage, I was allowed to have of contingent as permanent employees, which is what, 20 more than 20 years ago. And so I was always in kind of the how do you do it, what's the process? And then quickly got into being a bit like having been the bias regarding tech and kind of seeing and I was really lucky, really lucky to have exposure of my when technology was starting to grow quite rapidly and kind of getting involved in that science but never actually recruiting.
00:10:54:12 - 00:11:01:06
Sam Orrin
Having going education, you're intrinsically thinking about the person behind it, right? Not not just numbers on a.
00:11:01:08 - 00:11:26:17
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Were the people element to it, but I think also the data and the research elements to it as well. So, you know, I remember doing my dissertation at uni was whether extroverted people would be more and more successful as salespeople because there is a perception that if you're an extrovert, you can talk to people, you can go out and you could do it twice as compared to maybe an into that person.
00:11:26:17 - 00:11:28:21
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
So that was what my dissertation topic was on.
00:11:29:01 - 00:11:33:07
Sam Orrin
Wow, I would love to read these or have it.
00:11:33:09 - 00:11:37:09
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Probably somewhere in my parents house in like a box in the loft somewhere.
00:11:37:11 - 00:11:55:18
Sam Orrin
Yeah. I hilariously I might. I found my dissertation recently on in my emails and I obviously emailed it to myself on it so I could send it to someone or spell check at the time and I found it. I read it and I was like, Oh my God, this is I. It was mad. It was like a it was like I didn't know the person that had written it.
00:11:55:20 - 00:11:57:12
Sam Orrin
It was out long ago.
00:11:57:14 - 00:12:28:11
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
But I think that's also like a big part of apart from helping people get jobs and using data for me is really important and kind of and thinking about research and, and by research I really mean his opinions. So I'm now actually looking at kind of qualitative and quantitative data to find out and paint opinions rather than just assuming that we know everything and kind of being these experts, you do need to expand that and be open to other people's views.
00:12:28:13 - 00:12:49:20
Sam Orrin
I'll totally Well, having having both is so powerful. Like even when we say like here it was and we will do business cases or we'll do, you know, business reviews or whatever. But by far what lands the most is when you get a quote or a video of somebody actually saying how their experience is different, that is that that lands so well.
00:12:49:22 - 00:12:57:07
Sam Orrin
You can put we saved the studio or the 48 hours, you know, and you're just like a great grays another number they've kind of come up with some bullshit.
00:12:57:09 - 00:13:17:24
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Yeah yeah. I've decided it is funny, actually. I've just been doing some research because, you know, as I still like to be able to do that as part of my day job and just coming out with some stats recently and there's some stats out there in the marketplace which are some new net promoter scores for kind of MSPs and VMs is and it's extremely telling.
00:13:18:01 - 00:13:39:18
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
And when you and that is the door open to have a conversation that is I do think is why would you feel this way to why kind of and that's like the question of the value of AI and actually with anything that we and we do with the people elements, you have to listen. You have to you have to kind of step back and listen and I take things on board rather than just assuming that, you know, what you're saying is the right thing.
00:13:39:22 - 00:14:04:02
Sam Orrin
Yeah. Especially when decisions are often for me, decisions get made at senior level for the entire business, and then the people on the lower rungs of the ladder who are actually using the technology that maybe, you know, Genz, Gen Z or millennials and they're digital natives and that they're looking at work and going, What the hell is this?
00:14:04:02 - 00:14:18:24
Sam Orrin
Like, This isn't what I signed up for. I thought this work was going to be like dynamic and I was going to be meeting people and presenting to clients and they're actually doing, you know, they've been given some terrible system that I will tell you a process that they've they've got to do as is actually their job. That's why they get paid.
00:14:19:01 - 00:14:20:19
Sam Orrin
But it's hope. But it's horrible in a.
00:14:20:21 - 00:14:53:22
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Way that that's also why we've been doing design thinking sessions. I see. You know, if I get if I reverse back to years ago when I was going to do more of a consulting role, it was all around kind of Six Sigma process, the black and white of something. Whereas now those conversations are have completely changed to be more around the experience, what people want, feel, need, which even that in itself, you know, people and I I'm intrigued to know what people do want fanning need rather than the black and white of a process.
00:14:54:00 - 00:15:07:11
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
So spike of that comes back to you know that that you know that that's changed. And that isn't just because you get loads of white papers or research about candidate experience and etc., etc.. It's because the way people communicate is change.
00:15:07:17 - 00:15:26:07
Sam Orrin
Yeah, totally is totally change. They're saying on BBC. Yes. About how, you know, new new engines that work base are just forcing the change. They're basically just not hanging around long enough to. I said, Well, I'll go work somewhere that is better. And all of a sudden you have to then, you know, you have to change the culture to make it fit for the people.
00:15:26:07 - 00:15:45:02
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
But even that itself, you know, it's not just about all the digital savvy people who are maybe Gen Z, you know, I know Gen Z buyers, too. I would like to think I'm a little bit and savvy. But but but what you've also got is a lot more generations within the work base. You've got 20, 46 year olds.
00:15:45:04 - 00:15:58:05
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
So if you then combine everybody together, 92 different experiences, different personalities, all these things combined. So, so the actual workplace itself is really, really different because of how many people are in that.
00:15:58:07 - 00:16:09:08
Sam Orrin
Oh yeah. I as bloody point. And your what did you Arun did your parents influence what you did at university and your career there or was that what did they do.
00:16:09:10 - 00:16:20:03
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Not necessarily. The one thing I would say is that both my parents worked, so that instilled in me quite a kind of strong kind. Of course I'm in my forties, so I'm a my mum worked full time.
00:16:20:05 - 00:16:22:03
Sam Orrin
What did that what did they do?
00:16:22:05 - 00:16:45:15
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
So my mum worked within market research. So, so that kind of had like probably has got something to do with it in the sense of, you know, finding out, empathizing, wanting to understand people like people's perception of things, etc.. And, and even she's 80 this year and she still likes to how I like it and like hang around and do stuff in that area because she doesn't have spoken to people like my dad.
00:16:45:17 - 00:17:07:11
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
It was because he's retired. He was a structural engineer. So very data, very controlled. So no, not seminars in my like for like careers but similarities in, you know, like the data, the research and amounts of what I do etc. And so and yeah and and if anything they would just do it would do it makes you happy.
00:17:07:13 - 00:17:22:10
Sam Orrin
Yeah yeah, yeah. That's a generally good attitude to have isn't it. Is a difficult one to be told when you start out your career and your parents are like, well you know, if you're not happy, you should leave it, do it, make it happy. You like at the beginning of your career. I do feel that that that was well for me anyway.
00:17:22:10 - 00:17:26:04
Sam Orrin
It was it was difficult to do that. And I think maybe now maybe.
00:17:26:04 - 00:17:27:16
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Now it's.
00:17:27:18 - 00:17:35:07
Sam Orrin
I don't know that in the job market at the moment, it might be challenging, but I think that's the general attitude is that you can people do just generally want to make you have to amazing fidelity.
00:17:35:09 - 00:18:12:14
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Well, bearing in mind I've got two children I off you know, and they're still young but my lot but my 11 year old's view of what's a good career I, I can't I like what really you know because I like his views so his view you know in the world of an 11 year old, you're successful if he's got a certain amount of millions of subscribers on YouTube, you know this that type of kind of like influencing you know that that well I'm I often have a really healthy debate with him regarding well why don't you be a doctor?
00:18:12:16 - 00:18:43:20
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Because at some point you sign that you going to need a doctor to save your life. So we have these debates quite often. But I think, you know, the jobs that we do today, you know, as we already know, are going to be different at some point in time. And I and I although I probably shouldn't be trying to implement, saying, you know, I'm often saying, okay, now, you know, have, you know, be looking at a career at some point in time which which is in not something I doctors or even trades if you think about like like where they are and stuff and what's going to be replaced and all that stuff, there is
00:18:43:20 - 00:19:05:19
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
going to be potentially a different whole different world of careers out there and probably nice as well. You kind of. And if a feels like we're going a bit back to caveman times, isn't it, you know, what can a human do that only that only a human can do? And therefore, how do you protect your future and your family's future, bearing in mind that technology's evolving so quickly?
00:19:05:21 - 00:19:29:07
Sam Orrin
I'll change that. Jo-Jo, my partner, about it about this, because our little boy, Jesse's two next week, which is wild already and but he we were like, what the hell is a career path and not look after him in 20, whatever that is going to be. And then looking back, honestly, at my university, I went to school, went to university, I did fine art for a year.
00:19:29:07 - 00:19:44:16
Sam Orrin
The total wasted time but loved it. And then the history. And then I ended up in advertising sales. And then since I have that squiggle with my way through and had random jobs, that kind of it's like the soft, soft skills irrelevant in as interchangeable.
00:19:44:16 - 00:20:02:21
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Well, I think it depends, doesn't it? Because I if you get like I am, I'm lucky because I generally do use elements of my degree. Like I you know, I can run hypotheses and stats and things like because I actually did at uni if I, if I remember going to uni and when people were saying that they were going to go to university marketing or social media, I'm, I remember my parents behind that.
00:20:02:21 - 00:20:30:10
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
No proper degree. I like, I like having that view of the world. But then since then, if you look at how my marketing, social media advertising, that's actually like a really good thing. But then you look at some organizations and you know, they've stopped asking for degrees because they don't want people to be like shoehorned into a, you've got X, Y, Z, and then you go one step further and people think you're really thinking about skills and experience and, you know, training from within, within time and mobility.
00:20:30:10 - 00:20:48:20
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
And you say, I just don't think there's going to be a one size fits all and what you say, because all of us have choice simply like like going back to the people element, what I want to do today versus next month versus in two years time, it's going to be different depending on my emotions, how you know what's going on in my personal life, your physical.
00:20:48:22 - 00:20:52:11
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
So yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Everything. So it's so changeable.
00:20:52:17 - 00:21:09:10
Sam Orrin
Yeah, it's going to be like it's going to be a brave new world out there, isn't it? 20 years time. Yeah. Always exciting at sea. Yeah, well, that's it. So are you. You're. You're excited by the future. I, you know, you don't, you don't, you don't look at it like an episode of Black Mirror.
00:21:09:12 - 00:21:42:08
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Yeah. Now I am excited by it. I'm also quite black and white, so a bit like, okay, there's no there is, there is all this kind of black, all these predictions. And right now I feel like we're in a period of everyone's tried to trying to guesstimate the future predict what it's going to be like. You know and and ultimately although I know I said I'm like a black and white person because of how much uncertainty there is, I actually forcing myself in a position of just stop trying to predict it, stop trying to control everything.
00:21:42:08 - 00:22:00:06
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Just go with it because because you can't, which is actually quite refreshing, quite refreshing to just be like to know what it actually will be, what it will be like. Like it doesn't matter what I will do this. People will do this, the economy will do this, and we will all survive and be happy. Quarantine.
00:22:00:08 - 00:22:19:01
Sam Orrin
So he said he stopped cooking and reading all the nonsense, consulting a future of work reports and the percentage of jobs are going to be lost. I know that because I can't stand that stuff. I just like it does my head in. And you can't possibly predict what's going to happen in five years time.
00:22:19:03 - 00:22:44:16
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
So I used to spend a lot of time doing research because I used to always kind of want to kind of educate myself, etc. and I think I would pop. And actually this isn't actually this isn't a recent thing, as in the last couple of months. In the last couple of years, I've actually just kind of become more insular in that sense, in kind of forming my own opinions, forming my own view of the world rather than being influenced by others.
00:22:44:21 - 00:23:06:22
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
So even if I look at kind of my own social media presence, I'm not as active as I used to be because I'm also just like being present and living and getting on with things rather than necessarily just jumping on the bandwagon. I think sometimes with I Do Me Wrong is powerful research is it's used to research, but it's it's also research, isn't it?
00:23:06:23 - 00:23:08:14
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
It isn't. Real life isn't.
00:23:08:17 - 00:23:25:24
Sam Orrin
On on to become way more cynical in the last three years in particular and I don't know whether that's a mixture of like what we did, what we do at work, the how personal like my personal lives change though, but I'm so cynical now as reports and consultants haze and.
00:23:25:24 - 00:23:43:22
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
That might be due to being a parent and I to be honest do you think it so why why is that? Why do you say that? I just think as a parent, you guys see you know, I remember when my kids were young and I was consulting and I'd be on the phone when I was bossing them because they always just because what mattered so much.
00:23:43:24 - 00:24:05:22
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
And I guess my son, because it pays the bills, it does matter because there's an element of things like having self-fulfillment and purpose yourself. But, you know, I say to my husband saying it when the kids aren't in school anymore, I might just get a job in Tesco's, you know, I might just like just completely change everything and and simplify my life somewhat.
00:24:05:22 - 00:24:37:09
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
And he's like, You're never going to do that. I might do. But I think that's I think part of it is simplifying your life because as your children get older as well and you want to see things like through their eyes and be quite practically is absolutely is really difficult with life, admin, children, jobs and everything that comes with that and thinking about what peak I having to take all of that stuff, it's there's so much, there's so much distraction to so much noise that I think that's why there's an element of simplifying it.
00:24:37:09 - 00:24:46:20
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
And I saw I know you say cynical, but I think it's more just the case of just kind of just having your own journey in some respects because it is so distracting.
00:24:46:24 - 00:24:53:07
Sam Orrin
Yeah, you have to be super critical and you have to you have to look at the ten things on the level, 100 things or less, and go, I'll do those two. You have.
00:24:53:07 - 00:24:54:00
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
To prioritize that.
00:24:54:03 - 00:24:57:01
Sam Orrin
Everything else is falling by the wayside and I'm just going to let it go.
00:24:57:01 - 00:25:17:16
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Yeah, yeah. And coming back you always no question around like how does work bleed into life except job? Not now because I'm better at it. And also I have a really great work life balance of pace that there was times previously when by it, you know, I'd pick up the shoulder, not be so stressed because I say time poor and I'd be really horrible to them just because I was stressed.
00:25:17:18 - 00:25:29:16
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
And actually that's that's not the memory I want to give for them because I and you don't have that as a child. So it is again, it is a case of kind of I do think it's about like simplifying things 100%.
00:25:29:18 - 00:25:56:23
Sam Orrin
And last question, just to kind of finish off that tie up, if you if you could work and live in a period of time, any period of time and, you know, think think, I don't I cave people living in caves, hunter gatherers, uh, I don't, I, you know, Victorian era and, or, you know, whenever, when would, when, when would you want to wear it.
00:25:56:23 - 00:26:14:12
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Unless when, when I do I summit spurs on real fashion doesn't it. I would hope I think as were setting I think actually before social media and marketing kind of already came into the digital age.
00:26:14:14 - 00:26:16:22
Sam Orrin
They were just like the early noughties.
00:26:16:24 - 00:26:38:20
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
You know, probably before that was the or maybe even coming out of postwar in the seventies. And everybody's very happy because, you know, we've survived things, etcetera. You've got you haven't got all these opinions being forced down my forced on you all the time use about kind of like what's the world like working to live like rather than the other way round?
00:26:38:22 - 00:26:57:04
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Whereas I think, you know, apart from like how things are changing, you know, a lot of the time, you know, because everything's so there. We live in a really instantaneous world now, which is great because I love get my arms and delivery tomorrow morning is fantastic. But I think because of that it means that we can be quite impatient.
00:26:57:06 - 00:27:22:17
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
And do I think I think if you were then to do the research, i.e. scientific general like medical research, this surely knows the stuff out there which is shows that our brains operate in a different way, not to it to what I did 30, 40 years ago because of how instantaneous and how quick we want things. So I think I'd rather get back to then whereby like we weren't driven by the need, like driven by commercialization marketing.
00:27:22:17 - 00:27:25:17
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
What as like what you see on social media.
00:27:25:19 - 00:27:47:01
Sam Orrin
Exactly what I say. Like, you know, my, my dad's in his band, mum and dad are in the mid sixties so they were probably seventies kids, you know, side work in the late seventies and or mid seventies and then we didn't care what other people had and you didn't need it. You just basically like went about and if you went somewhere it was like, Wow, this is awesome.
00:27:47:01 - 00:27:51:16
Sam Orrin
This is about us, you know? So I'm in definitely a simpler time. I mean, it's.
00:27:51:20 - 00:28:13:22
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
It's a completely different world come like even, like with the Keats's doctor the prime during like there's a prime example prime example that's a prime example of social media marketing, you know, having a massive influence on children like children saving their pocket money to buy a drink, and then my kids being that kind of a prime places to quit and that type.
00:28:13:24 - 00:28:23:01
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
But that in itself is just an example of, you know, our opinions are being influenced by happily by but by all of that. And so so I think.
00:28:23:01 - 00:28:33:02
Sam Orrin
Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. Honestly, the music was awesome. Uh, where, where, where in where in the world in the seventies would you live with you? Just the UK Californian.
00:28:33:07 - 00:28:54:07
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
I mean, when I was in primary school again was although this is one thing I didn't actually, I told my maths teacher he was my year six teacher who I really night. And I said to him when he said, Oh what are you going to do when you grow up? Like I'm going to be a businesswoman and living in New York, like as a as a seven year old.
00:28:54:09 - 00:29:06:01
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
So I'm, I believe that business were part but but not the New York part. But I thought I was going to live anywhere. I I'd either live in the States or Switzerland, completely different places by Very nice.
00:29:06:03 - 00:29:13:09
Sam Orrin
I'll take that. And I'm Kirsten. Thanks so much. It's been lovely and really lovely chat. Now come to.
00:29:13:11 - 00:29:14:10
Kirsten Tolfrey-Dart
Our speech, you said.