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00:00:00:09 - 00:00:27:24
Sam Orrin
Today's conversations with Bryan Peña. Bryan I met in the virtual world during lockdown, forging a bit of relationship and from either side of the Atlantic and its relationship lives love. And with Bryan’s experience in the quote unquote contingent workforce industry spanning literally decades, he's been a real a real mentor for me over the last 18, 24 months or so.
00:00:28:01 - 00:00:57:12
Sam Orrin
And as we met right now a few times in person in real life IRL. And he is just someone I absolutely love having conversations with about anything and everything, not just work. In this episode we talk about. Well, again, anything and everything from meaning how experience has shaped careers of our children and what we expect. Or maybe don't expect like that parents in the past used to.
00:00:57:14 - 00:01:06:00
Sam Orrin
And what we expect to see them do in their future careers. Enjoy. Bryan. Hello, my friend. How are you?
00:01:06:02 - 00:01:09:04
Bryan Peña
And Sam are you and get get the date.
00:01:09:10 - 00:01:15:18
Sam Orrin
That was quite good. The disingenuous introductions open because isn't it that I.
00:01:15:19 - 00:01:24:13
Bryan Pena
That's okay. We don't need to get too much. We're not. We're not really big. I'm putting on airs right now and.
00:01:24:15 - 00:01:33:20
Sam Orrin
I'll kick off with really one question. What do you do for work? And can you could you explain what you do is if you're talking to a five year old place?
00:01:33:22 - 00:02:04:11
Bryan Peña
Bryan Wow. Well, I have a couple of lines of business or work stories, as it were. We have our consulting business, which is to find solutions. And what we do is we work with companies, usually tech start ups and starting firms. Dell and platforms like to, you know, kind of succeed in this new and competitive time in the future, work with a special sort of focus on developing enterprise offerings and improving value propositions.
00:02:04:11 - 00:02:28:21
Bryan Peña
So for better and better outcomes, that's like a long way of saying I just sell business and do better at growing. And then I have another line of business that we pull find events, we do workshops, webinars and trainings. I read all of the stuff that they do is really, really designed or focused on improving the word experience for everyone involved.
00:02:28:23 - 00:02:29:14
Bryan Peña
Yeah.
00:02:29:16 - 00:02:39:11
Sam Orrin
And that's obviously how we ended up talking, right? Yeah, Yeah. And I kind of how did it, how did that even come about? We just stumbled into each other. I think the way.
00:02:39:13 - 00:02:43:22
Bryan Peña
That I think we were introduced.
00:02:43:24 - 00:02:44:23
Sam Orrin
The open assembly.
00:02:44:24 - 00:02:47:18
Bryan Peña
Realities kind of. Yeah.
00:02:47:20 - 00:02:48:09
Sam Orrin
Yeah, yeah.
00:02:48:09 - 00:03:09:01
Bryan Peña
That's how I was intrigued. I was lamenting the lack of innovation in our business and the lack of the companies who were trying to disrupt existing models. And I saw it as a huge opportunity. Well, then I would refer to you guys along the Ultimates exactly what works I'm trying to do.
00:03:09:03 - 00:03:27:14
Sam Orrin
And recall the go. Yeah, yeah. And then obviously you've got a long and illustrious career in in this industry, great industry that we call in this contingent workforce industry think it was a bit of the backlog that.
00:03:27:16 - 00:03:51:11
Bryan Peña
Well I've been in this field of working and continue to work know as a practitioner, as a researcher and speaker advisor and then November and then now for the last working as a and a jack of all trades consultants. So I started my career at Universal Studios to negotiating hard work contracts, manufacturing inputs for VHS tapes, if you can believe it.
00:03:51:13 - 00:04:26:05
Bryan Peña
And then from there I went to category sector about it was professional services, labor and it just work where you kind of like that was my favorite. The combination of really like it's a combination of sociology, economics, contract law. There's a strong human element to it. You can actually the purpose of it. And so I just always, ever since I found that category expanded, that's something I've always really enjoyed doing and I so I ran the program there at Universal and the way the number of different MSP and VMs which was there.
00:04:26:05 - 00:04:58:00
Bryan Peña
And then I went to Avery Dennison, which is a label manufacturer here in the States, and it same thing, I managed it as well as professional services and travel and freight. So professional service category there, that was a lot of fun. And then I went to Staffing Industry Honest, where a lot of people know me. I spent 11 years there where I was in charge of all the enterprise research contents, conference materials, and a lot of people know we best for developing the CCP.
00:04:58:02 - 00:05:19:19
Bryan Peña
Sort of. I did a workhorse practitioner that was my baby wrote the first book and now it's been, you know, now it is, but is. And then I left there and went to new partners and I was there for two years as the chief market strategy. And now I have to find solutions where we work with companies to to improve the bottom line.
00:05:19:21 - 00:05:44:20
Sam Orrin
Yeah. Yeah. Nice. You met you mentioned. No like the three things you really enjoy. You know, it's psychology, it's relationship building, an economics negotiation, all that kind of ends up I've been in, I guess, in the industry now for like a really short period of time, you know, quote unquote officially as actually taking part in the bits into the workforce space.
00:05:44:22 - 00:05:54:14
Sam Orrin
So many times I've heard people say no one wakes up in the morning one day age, you know, 15 or no one wants to be in staffing when they grow up.
00:05:54:16 - 00:05:55:15
Bryan Peña
Yeah.
00:05:55:17 - 00:05:58:14
Sam Orrin
And I said, Crap. I guess that's always the way right?
00:05:58:16 - 00:06:24:22
Bryan Peña
And you're you fall into it, you know, that's. Yeah. But you people, you know, end up in staffing or recruitment as a goal. What is it used to be that way. Now there's that It's a whole and that's something we talk about all the time. It's there's a whole generation of professionals who are, you know, who start their careers here, you know, start their first job out of college as the managing that.
00:06:24:22 - 00:06:52:02
Bryan Peña
It was like in the end or the market, you know, right now. And I think it's a good thing for the industry to their shows. It's like a destination career, you know, but it's also challenging in the provider space because you know, you have a whole population of professionals who have no experience implementing anything. And that's very, very hard to do and very challenging to do.
00:06:52:02 - 00:07:02:11
Bryan Peña
Well, if you don't know the questions to ask or the pitfalls to do or that are how to scope the problem appropriately, how to negotiate a contract the right way.
00:07:02:13 - 00:07:30:13
Sam Orrin
Yeah, it's hard to agree on that. I think we're at the point now a media that laid the chops about this where in staffing and in in a solution designed for these for like the programs you need that kind of unicorn type experience which there's definitely people in the industry that have this there's not maybe not a unicorn, maybe it's you know, I don't know what's less rare than the unicorn, but more in a band that a bit of a rabbit hole.
00:07:30:15 - 00:07:37:16
Sam Orrin
But this kind of like growth mindset of, okay, I know how to do this, I've got the experience to do it, but I'm going to do it differently.
00:07:37:18 - 00:08:09:09
Bryan Peña
Yes, I think that people are are limited in their understanding of these models. You know, I think it's it's it's because the de facto solution is always been we'll sign an MSP contract when have a vendor management system and then I can let them do it And what happens is over time is the program of become sale and unimaginative and then they they're focused or they negotiate on the wrong terms.
00:08:09:09 - 00:08:36:21
Bryan Peña
The easiest example that's like a big a gen one program to a Gen three one right. Gen one program is will be about, you know, bringing order to chaos, capturing savings control, the contract process, efficiency and transparency and both head down costs. And then that's all procurement cost related focused and oftentimes on the negotiated with the supplier. Right.
00:08:36:23 - 00:08:58:22
Bryan Peña
So you start the program with one goal and then after a certain amount of time, that's no longer good enough because you've exhausted and you've kind of solved all the major problems and now you want to optimize the talent experience or your experience with that? CHANNELS Well, a lot of providers don't have that muscle memory to be able to do that, so they just basically offer more of the same.
00:08:58:24 - 00:09:07:13
Bryan Peña
And so we see that now and that's why a lot of MSP providers are reinventing themselves and trying to arm.
00:09:07:15 - 00:09:09:06
Sam Orrin
The market in a.
00:09:09:06 - 00:09:10:06
Bryan Peña
Way.
00:09:10:08 - 00:09:11:22
Sam Orrin
The three year problem, as you put it.
00:09:12:03 - 00:09:15:03
Bryan Peña
Yeah, read a problem to respond through your head.
00:09:15:05 - 00:09:23:21
Sam Orrin
And so you feel like if you like your work over the years is affected the the wider world than.
00:09:23:22 - 00:09:43:19
Bryan Peña
I like to think so I like to think so. I mean I, I like to think that, you know, I've made a difference. Yeah. And you know, that's, that's while I'm very proud work background and I'm proud of the CCP and I'm proud of the time investigating and all the things. I'm just I don't want that to be it right.
00:09:43:20 - 00:10:11:09
Bryan Peña
I want to, you know, keep on doing new things and watching the push the boundaries and apply it. But I like to think that I have and one of the things that I really connect to in this particular industry more than ever, is I did believe that like every fiber of my being, that the greatest thing you could do for me being is, you know, provide them or facilitate that having a job or opportunity to the everything else flows from that.
00:10:11:13 - 00:10:26:17
Bryan Peña
And staying connected to that purpose is one thing that I enjoy is working with organizations that put people to work. And, you know, it's a good business to be in. There's money to be made.
00:10:26:19 - 00:10:55:23
Sam Orrin
Oh yeah, definitely. It's like super profitable, isn't it? Stopping recruitment. It's like one of the early one of the oldest gigs going really, isn't it? And you giving people jobs and gee, for you, do you feel like, uh, he felt like there's a line between Bryan at work and Bryan not working, you know, Is there are, there are balance.
00:10:55:23 - 00:11:02:18
Sam Orrin
You have to balance it. You know, I'm trying to say is is life work or is it?
00:11:02:20 - 00:11:16:22
Bryan Peña
Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, you, you, you do your best to be a professional and you delineate between the person you are at work and the person you are at home.
00:11:16:24 - 00:11:44:02
Bryan Peña
I, I definitely think that I do my best to think that they're aligned, you know, and I played both roles right. I try I've had a different life outside of work in a different light and work. One of the things that I like about, you know, you know, working right within my own company is that basically that gap is much more narrow.
00:11:44:04 - 00:12:10:22
Bryan Peña
Yeah. And I like to think that the reason I can be successful is because I try to be as authentic as possible with the people in work where I'm, you know, still respecting boundaries. But I think that the more aligned you are with who you are an authentic self, the better your business is going to be. People just don't know.
00:12:10:24 - 00:12:12:00
Sam Orrin
Yeah, I'll tell you what.
00:12:12:06 - 00:12:36:13
Bryan Peña
People can spot it. And the one thing that is to me the most important thing is frankly, be the integrity that you bring to whatever job you're doing. You know, I can't I can't even begin to tell you how how many times when I'm talking to an executive or talking to a client. The notion of trust and being trustworthy is front and center.
00:12:36:15 - 00:12:40:18
Bryan Peña
Yeah. And that comes from that alignment and being consistent.
00:12:40:20 - 00:12:47:14
Sam Orrin
Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned boundaries there. Well, give us an example of one of your boundaries.
00:12:47:16 - 00:13:21:01
Bryan Peña
Well, I think, you know, I think that, you know, getting too into your personal life and work context, you know, you know, earning the right and respecting the privacy of the people in your life. Right. And I think that that's important. I knew I knew executive rule, you know, public setting, talking about it. His daughters, you know, tutoring challenges like that was a little over the line.
00:13:21:06 - 00:13:38:07
Bryan Peña
Probably a that's an example, I think, of a boundary. And I think that, you know, and respecting and having that similar boundary on limitations that you have in terms of what you share that's personal and what you don't, I think that's important. Yeah. You lose yourself.
00:13:38:09 - 00:14:03:04
Sam Orrin
It isn't for me, it's really difficult, especially on I think on I feel anyway, like over the last few months in particular and I'm always craving there to be more of a boundary given, you know, like right now we're on a Zoom call and just everybody zooms in what's become a kind of a parody of what COVID was all about, right?
00:14:03:06 - 00:14:17:15
Sam Orrin
Everybody had to learn to do this. But like, do you feel like it's do you look back at the glory days as they were, where you were in airplanes traveling around, you had to go to in-person meetings? Or is this does this work for you?
00:14:17:15 - 00:14:37:24
Bryan Peña
What what do you think? You know, that's sort of what I'm describing zero in. Yeah, I missed that was one of the things that I I've always liked about this industry was the amount of travel I do I do miss like when I got you to drop me once a month when we did not, that was on the road.
00:14:38:01 - 00:14:51:07
Bryan Peña
I missed that allow. That is definitely true. Now I would like to be out more so that you know, that's that's definitely something I want to do more when I do message are.
00:14:51:09 - 00:15:16:12
Sam Orrin
I don't know a single person I've asked that to whether it's on this podcast or whether it's just just generally like I think everybody kind of crazy. I think people aren't willing to go into the office quite maybe quite rightly five days a week because it is a bit of a waste of time sometimes to go in every single day, every single week and have to put up with a commute or whatever.
00:15:16:12 - 00:15:18:07
Bryan Peña
But yeah, but.
00:15:18:09 - 00:15:25:05
Sam Orrin
At the same time it is a balance isn't it. Is needed to, to kind of override fatigue of phone and call up the phone.
00:15:25:11 - 00:15:39:09
Bryan Peña
Or to find. Yeah. I mean I think that it's definitely a balance. Yeah. You know you know since working from home, you know even though entire days where you don't leave the house. Yeah. Yeah. How do you know.
00:15:39:11 - 00:15:51:04
Sam Orrin
If you catch yourself in that kind of how do you, how do you change your how do you change routes. Do you have to change your routine every now and then? Do you have to, like, jolt yourself and go, right, this guy, the chair, just get out of the house, gather, you know, country.
00:15:51:06 - 00:16:12:23
Bryan Peña
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, well, I myself, I spend time with my fiance, which I spent time against boys. And so it kind of breaking up will not be on. Also, I try to do this thing. I've expanded to think this year where I get engaged in a new thing every month, right? From going to a bar to glass to taking flying lessons and doing standup comedy.
00:16:13:00 - 00:16:28:22
Bryan Peña
I try to do something new to break up the monotony and be intentional in that. In that regard, you know, whether it's a line it broke like a broader week shooting, which is something we do in a matter of time.
00:16:28:24 - 00:16:33:07
Sam Orrin
Yeah, I love that it is needed, but you need to consciously do it not only.
00:16:33:09 - 00:16:37:03
Bryan Peña
Intentional, you have to be intentional about 100%. Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:37:05 - 00:16:46:22
Sam Orrin
And even your, you know. Oh cool, cool, cool. A career because of people. So could it or do you feel like it's a career? Is it career?
00:16:46:24 - 00:16:48:05
Bryan Peña
Yeah.
00:16:48:07 - 00:16:59:10
Sam Orrin
Yeah. Right. Yeah. So what, what career do you want your, you know, your children to go into, given what you know about the world and your experience.
00:16:59:12 - 00:17:34:10
Bryan Peña
Well, I think it depends. So. So all my kids are very artistic, artistic. So, you know, they're pursuing something in the performance where I'm really in structural for sure. If I could. If I could, you know, in our stage happen to be happy and successful, whatever that is. Yeah. If I could go back and say, you know, what I think would be the best act would be your, I think the number one thing I would do is learn trade and then as soon as possible and learn to build a bigger business based on that trait.
00:17:34:12 - 00:18:04:17
Bryan Peña
Yeah, that would be the most defensible career I could imagine. You know, going in and being a plumber and then learn your plumber. But the first you buy one truck, two trucks or trucks, and by the time you're 30, you're never you're never touching a pipe again. You know that that's the path to success. And to three. It's no longer, I think, spending five years going to college and graduating with the hope of some job and at.
00:18:04:19 - 00:18:06:01
Sam Orrin
The end of.
00:18:06:02 - 00:18:30:01
Bryan Peña
The month, that's what's exciting about that's what excited about right now is that it's the nature of work is fundamentally changing and the equation and but they're not the algorithm of success, which used to be a college or university, followed immediately by job and then what have you, is just up in the air. You can get the same certifications at a more for free from Google.
00:18:30:03 - 00:18:42:24
Bryan Peña
Yeah. And, and it is just such an exciting time right now. So great to be that even some small influence on the it's really awesome that's what I love about.
00:18:43:01 - 00:18:47:18
Sam Orrin
I know you did and how old are you Remind me how old you kids are again. You know I'm.
00:18:47:20 - 00:18:53:14
Bryan Peña
20. We're going to be 20 or 22 and 16.
00:18:53:16 - 00:19:13:10
Sam Orrin
They're about as good. It feels like that is like the point where you really all of those ages you're thinking about, Holy shit, what am I doing for work right now? You know, like 16 is when you maybe start, you get pressure usually from parents, right? You know, you need to start thinking about going to college or 24 is like, Oh my God, all I want to do is go to festivals all summer.
00:19:13:10 - 00:19:14:04
Sam Orrin
I don't really care.
00:19:14:09 - 00:19:41:08
Bryan Peña
Yeah, well, I mean, I get I give I had a very nontraditional career path, right? So I give my kids plenty of leeway to bind themselves because Lord knows I didn't get my act together when I was only nine or 30. So, you know, find yourself. And the way I always tell people is, you know, you pursue experiences when you're young, see what regret not having than when you're older.
00:19:41:10 - 00:19:55:15
Bryan Peña
And I stand passed by that. So I just want my kids to have good experiences, unique experiences that they can hold on to when they're older. That will help be the basis for their character and how they can raise your family.
00:19:55:17 - 00:20:19:04
Sam Orrin
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, on one hand, my little boy was he Jessie's two and I'm I've had so many conversations recently about what a job or career is going to look like for him when he. So that will be in 20 what, 40. Which is that scared the shit out of me and that it is daunting. I think I feel I find it.
00:20:19:05 - 00:20:24:07
Sam Orrin
So I need to take a leaf out of your book there. That is.
00:20:24:09 - 00:20:48:17
Bryan Peña
Your job as a parent is relatively straightforward. Your job as a parent is to be a proxy for people for that right? So what does that mean? That means you you you have to look at everything as a parent, as a mechanism to prepare them for a world that's not going to frankly, get to grips about them. Yeah.
00:20:48:21 - 00:21:12:05
Bryan Peña
Yeah. And so a lot of parents think that their job is to, you know, overly coddle or make them say, no, your job is to, you know, make them scrape their toes and learn how hot things are and why and that treaty and all that other stuff. And then and then one that's a the dad, you know, you want to make sure that you're the one pushing to do that.
00:21:12:05 - 00:21:28:06
Bryan Peña
That's the role. Mm No. And now roughhouse and have fun with marching bands do well yeah, I missed it. I wish I had, I missed. I miss having younger kids. I really do. I really jealous.
00:21:28:08 - 00:21:47:04
Sam Orrin
Oh, well, that's good to hear. Well, yeah, and it does feel daunting on any given day that I wake up, it ought to be super daunting or super exciting. And, you know, the more you read about technology, the more frightening it gets. Maybe that's that's definitely the vibe at the moment. But I'll I'll speech in three months time and I've changed my mind and it's totally changed again.
00:21:47:06 - 00:22:19:00
Sam Orrin
And final question, and this is a bit of a conceptual question looking back. That's fine. You know, let's take the time of it could be, you know, a medieval times when there were no there was no there was no plumbing and there was trades and people, you know, traded and, you know, crops and things like that and or the Roman era or, you know, hunter gatherer periods.
00:22:19:02 - 00:22:50:08
Sam Orrin
And compared to now where obviously a lot of us are just kind of like, you know, hunched over laptops all the time, talking emails for the most part, people who aren't doing that generally are and have lot to a lot to a, you know, a production line, I guess, and or in in a cab. What's what's the what's the best the worst thing and the you you know, what's the worst thing about today compared to then and vice versa.
00:22:50:10 - 00:23:17:16
Bryan Peña
Well I think I think I think it was nearly word date or spec. Then people die. It's you know, it was rampant the ability to do that. I think also, you know in lighter it's just overall harder and more uncertain for a whole cast and people are they can be opportunities for probably very very different based on you know, any number of factors where you last don't like that.
00:23:17:18 - 00:23:44:01
Bryan Peña
At the same time, I imagine it was much more adventurous. And I think that the experience of like would probably diametrically different. You know, we are all horribly addicted to double meat and we have so many different distractions and I mean, I can imagine what that would be like to, you know, back then that was before books are widely available.
00:23:44:01 - 00:24:03:09
Bryan Peña
So what would be what would you do? You'd probably know your neighbors a lot better. You I'd be better at discussing things on the day because that was the only way to remain active. Connects was to connect with other people. So I think that is definitely a good thing. I think I would miss that. I think I would.
00:24:03:09 - 00:24:27:22
Bryan Peña
I think I missed that in a real in a real context, obviously talk of working friends, a family. But I think that the nature of conversation was probably much more real back then because that was the only way you would really the only activity, I would say to, you know, other ones. But I think that I think the biggest difference would be that we'd all be much less distracted and much more present.
00:24:27:24 - 00:24:38:20
Sam Orrin
Yeah. So the irony of it is with the Internet in particular, you know, there's more conversation than ever, but it's not maybe a quality conversation that. No.
00:24:38:22 - 00:25:10:24
Bryan Peña
I don't think there's any conversation. I think what I think I think what it is, it is I think I mean, we can talk about that all day. I think that the Internet is a mechanism for amplifying the best and worst in people. And and I think the Internet also reinforces reinforce and bias, reinforces existing dogma because you have the ability to pursue nothing but your own perspective, things that validate your point, everything validates your point.
00:25:10:24 - 00:25:33:16
Bryan Peña
And so what happens is that while we have more information than networks at our fingertips, people are more tribal than ever because they have an opportunity here. The system serves up nothing but things that they know that they want to hear to keep them engaged. So, you know, I think, again, it's much more polarized. Sure.
00:25:33:18 - 00:25:39:10
Sam Orrin
Yeah. But despite that, you're living you're living firmly in the present. You're not going to pick a period in time in the past.
00:25:39:12 - 00:26:06:22
Bryan Peña
You know, I think I like living now. I think I know that, like I often have, but I often have that thought experiment and I wouldn't change anything. I mean, I pride myself in trying to be free of regrets. And I have a couple that are just really minor, like, you know, Improvization when I was an actor, I would back another issue again.
00:26:06:24 - 00:26:13:10
Sam Orrin
You know, we've just talked about your career history and you didn't even mention when I was an actor, you know?
00:26:13:14 - 00:26:17:16
Bryan Peña
Well, I Yeah, I know. That's that's always something people like to talk about.
00:26:17:20 - 00:26:19:18
Sam Orrin
That is episode two.
00:26:19:20 - 00:26:25:16
Bryan Peña
That episode two would do that again. We're a little bit over time and I love it.
00:26:25:16 - 00:26:31:23
Sam Orrin
I'll. Bryan thanks so much. Madison So a pleasure meeting you talk so much and I'm so glad that we managed to get started.
00:26:31:23 - 00:26:36:19
Bryan Peña
I always love our conversation. Sam I think it's super quotable. Anytime you want. Let's do this again.
00:26:36:21 - 00:26:39:21
Sam Orrin
Yeah, yeah, sure. We'll do it another time. All right.
00:26:39:23 - 00:26:41:10
Bryan Peña
Man There's a lot.